Apr 21, 2007
Religion: a recipe for human misery
Part of me wants to just not bother with this and this, since no one really seems to be taking Jason and Shivanath seriously anyway. But, since I have endorsed work by both of them in the past, and still have a lot of respect for them, I feel like I’ve got to say: yes, they are spewing disingenuous bile. They have their own agenda evangelizing for their own New Agey religion, and are not any more “neutral” than Gypsy Lantern is on the subject.
Says “Johnny Templar”: “That voodoo hoojoo is just a recipe for human misery.”
But I gotta ask: aren’t Buddhism and Hindu also a recipe for human misery?
I don’t consider myself a practitioner of Vodoun, or of Tantric Hindu but have an interest in both. If I had to pick which one was “better” I’d pick the religion of the only successful slave revolt in history, not the religion that kept the Dalits ‘in their place’ for centuries. I’d pick the one that lets women and homosexuals be priests. That said, I’ve been influenced by Tantric and Hindu thought, particularly by Shivanath’s writings on the subject.
Readers of this blog know that I consider religion in general to be a recipe for human suffering and call myself an atheist. I believe that there are elements of religions that can be useful for individuals, but there is no objective utility any of this. Jason and Shivanath’s campaign against voodoo is silly at best, and creepy and cult-like at worst, especially when Jason’s throwing around statements like these: “Nobody invited you here. You came into *my* temple looking for a fight, and you are not welcome here.”
Related posts (autogenerated):
snooping around that forum even a bit further does seem to make even greater impressions of cult devotion and ethno-tribalism.
Call me conspiracy hungry or rumor starting, but Ultraculture just seems like something thats taking place under the auspices of the Nath Society, much like What The Bleep Do We Know is the starter kit for the Ramtha School of Enlightenment. Or should I just come out and say it? UC is this years “Battlefield Earth”.
Okay, its not Billy Love, its not J-Lo… its Louv-Ron. ^_^ heh
[sorry K-Ron, youve been usurped.]
In all fairness, Shivanath claims that the American Nath Society is a parody of the International Nath Order.
seems like you are right, but I like my version better, so I’m sticking to it. ;P
CthuluUltraNaths are evilllllllllllllll
Ack. Looks like you’re right.
http://groups.google.com/group/ultraculture/msg/6b2406024b38079a?
Key quotes:
“First off, let me be clear that Shivanath is part of my kula, my Nath family.”
“The UC Journal and message board are not Nath-specific but Naths are the bouncers and guardians of this space.
I will stand back to back with Shivanath fracturing skulls if need be to defend this temple from the Hoodoo Cemetary Bop or anything else which threatens the safety of the people here.”
“The Naths have the technology to not only kill these entities but also to decondition the people who currently believe they are permanently enthralled and in debt to them and show them sunlight, fresh air and freedom.”
toldja, the CthuluXenuUltraMegaNaths must be stopped!
As someone who’s studied and practiced the occult for 30 years, the books I had on Vodou sat on my shelf for years before I picked them up to read and study them. There’s a reason for this. This religion is not something someone takes lightly, or tries to do a ritual with because they’re curious and it sounds interesting. The Orisha/Loa are very powerful memes. Those I know into it say that the Loa call YOU when you’re ready. If someone had a bad experience with it, they were dabbling with an experience that they weren’t ready for, and the negative result was the warning. Sometimes a bad result IS the lesson learned. What’s “good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander”. Vodoun is a way of life for those who practice it in earnest. For many, it takes most of their lifetime to master it (same with Tantra). As for the poor guys at UC, I’m willing to bet that those powerful Vodoun, Tantric energies had a blast kicking some “new-agey, mamby-pamby, do-goody” ass!
I’m so glad that enlightenment, open-mindedness, universal love, and occultic secrets apparently are in need of, but have, “bouncers.”
their velvet rope is just shit strung together, it’s their prison, let em have it.
Over the past month or so I’ve more or less refrained from comment on the spiral downwards that UC seems to be heading down despite it’s paradoxically progressive, motivational opening lines in the journal. The message seems to be “OUR WAY OR THE HIGHWAY.” If you write a piece or offer up your opinion in a forum, be prepared to take criticism and take it gracefully. I see none of that.
But honest to goodness, after reading that thread and the egocentric, fallacious logical conundrums for condemning an entire spiritual path (and it all boils down to, ‘It didn’t work out for me, so it’s BAD. So…. THERE.’)I have to say that I am ashamed to say that I had previously executed poor character judgment in considering some of the individuals that made the publication possible as genuinely levelheaded and well meaning in their own right. I was wrong. Over the last few months – one of these people in particular – I’ve gone out of my way to defend in conversations where his name would be tarnished by the mention of his poor choices and actions. So, I apologize – I was wrong. UC doesn’t have as much as integrity as they would like us to think. I apologize for defending it. That on it’s own makes me very, very sad.
I hope there is enough left after, to pick up the pieces and build anew.
I had planned to reserve public comment for the Key23 review of UCJ1 but this is just too hot to drop.
I think it’s worth separating the Louv-Nath personality axis out of this and discussing the theology and philosophy (such as it is) of UC in general. On the one hand, their imperative that we are “living in interesting times” and that it is incumbent upon magickians to do more than just jack off over post-it notes is a ringing endorsement of the full potential of magick. Still, this doesn’t wash away what are some fairly blatant right-hand path cum Grant Morrison “The System” worship as well as what appears to be a nascent personality cult.
I liked UCJ1. It’s a good read and it has a lot to say about magick that even if it has been said before perhaps needs reiterating. That said, a dismissive attitude toward certain traditions (hit upon rather eloquently by the erstwhile up-to-her-tits-in-Ultraculture Triskele) as well as a generally dismissive attitude towards those not hip enough to “get it” seems cause for concern. The number of “with us or against us” and “if you don’t understand this then you’re not a real ipsissimus” type statements equally seems cause for alarm. In light of these tendencies, it seems little surprising that a minor discussion would erupt into full-blown civil war.
While I agree that mortgaging oneself out to otherworldly entities is questionable at best, some perspective seems in order. If we want to talk about metaphysical / spiritual “protection rackets” let’s talk about Catholicism and its indulgences, the Hindu caste system, and the tendency of Zen Buddhism toward genocide and fascism. Klint’s point about voudon being the religion of the only successful slave revolt- not to mention the religion of the only successful occultist dictatorship (Papa Doc) that I’m aware- seem relevant and speak, if nothing else, to the power of the system. Louv’s claims about the effectiveness of Nath technology in killing the entities and deprogramming their “victims” seems questionable, problematic and downright creepy considering what types of people make similar claims. The response “but we have the real shit” should, of course, be rejected out of hand.
Basically, I’ll buy what Louv-Nath say about voudon when Steven Grasso tells me it’s true.
I’m very interested to hear what he has to say on the matter.
Oh dear.
You guys haven’t actually been reading that shit, have you?
Like, Louv’s personal experiences with Gypsy Lantern’s work and tradition are a lot of where he actually got that impression of the stuff.
I got my experience from radically different sources.
Same shit.
I think that if you actually read what was said, you’ll find out that the case made is simple, based on practical field experience, and fairly uncontroversial. The hype and the fuss is mainly from people who have not actually read the thread, or even the book, and therefore are largely yelling and screaming about what their friends have told them was said, and not about the actual content.
Hype, in short. A lot of hype.
Shivanath – Nice try. Yes, I read it. I don’t quite buy the allegations of racism that have been floating around, so I didn’t include those in my criticism. I stand by what I’ve posted here.
Angelina – As you probably know Gypsy Lantern = Stephen Grasso. His opinion on the matter can be found on the UC thread in question, and on Barbelith http://www.barbelith.com/topic/26898
(I hope I’m not outing his secret identity, it’s common knowledge right?)
Shivanath:
I’ve actually read it too. I think the arguments flirt with racism in as much as your comments would seem to at least imply (if not explicitly declare) that Yoruban deities are actually insectile mobster parasite demons- correct me if I’m being unfair here- which you then compare to AIDS and crack. Doesn’t sound too good if nothing else and smells a bit like racism to me.
But in the final analysis what troubles me about this incident is not the actual idea content put forward, as problematic as I find you and Jason’s views on voodoo. What troubles me is the heavy-handed, imperious and dismissive way in which all legitimate counter-arguments were handled. Your part in the discussion seems particularly childish and foolish to me. “Asswipe?” Are we 10?
Finally, Jason’s talk of “my temple” and “Nath bouncers” smacks more and more of personality cultism the more that I read it. This, coupled with his bizarre claims about killing astral entities and deprogramming them using “Nath technology” seem reason enough for me to avoid further participation in the Ultraculture meme. What started out as an exciting and interesting open-source magical group of a new type (remember all the “no one owns Ultraculture” talk?) now appears to be little more than some kind of New Age cult, distinguishable from Scientology only in terms of power, resources and superstructure. In shooting to be Jack Parsons it seems that Jason may have landed in L. Ron country instead.
It also seems worth noting that quite literally no one I have spoken to about this- and everyone I’ve spoken to has read the thread, “Bob” help them- supports the view posited by you and Jason or the tone you both take in the discussion. This may mean nothing and perhaps it shouldn’t. Or maybe it means you guys are way the fuck off base.
I think the more racially troubling aspect of all this is the claim that the problems Haitians experience are due to the LOA and not radical racial inequality and poverty brought about by slavery, colonialism, and institutionalized racism.
I don\’t blame the Hindu devas for the plight of the lower castes or the people of Nepal. I blame the people who perpetuate oppression in the name of their religion.
The worst that can be said of Vodoun in this respect is that it fails to solve the larger social problems of Haitian people, and that, like other religions, individuals have committed crimes such as rape and tried to justify it with their religion. The latter has only anecdotal support from Louv and Snath, but I have no reason to doubt it. It still doesn\’t convince me that Vodoun isn\’t among the least harmful of all religions. When one considers the role of Vodoun in Haiti\’s slave revolt, it\’s only more admirable. Here seems to be a religion that offers not \”slave morality\” but a call to action.
And yeah, the transformation of Ultraculture from social movement to cult is lame.
When Jason Louv was in Seattle, and gave his little talk regarding the Generation Hex release, there were two groups of people in his audience:
1) The IdiOTs who brought him to Seattle and paid Robert @ Edge of the Circle bookstore for the venue (suckers).
2) AND two post-Zees who sat in the back row and heckled the monstrous volumes of half-baked, meaningless banter that engulfed the conversation. We were originally planning on heckling Trisk, since she’s an old chum, but she couldn’t show that day due to border issues.
And thus, there was nothing of substance said at any time, and any attempt to explore the topics presented with anything remotely resembling time-tested tools was met with contempt and dirty looks from J-Lo and his IdiOT fans.
Which is what I expected. I didn’t expect much, being as Disinfo is about as accurate as any other media cult, just a little more on the fringe-pop scene than, say, adbusters or CNN or Fox News, with the possible exceptions of the al Manar and Public Access networks.
And some of the stuff these people were talking about was so entirely meme-pop that I almost vomited a few times. Geneticists are the saviors of the world, did you know? Yeah, they’re gonna get together with entheogen-using shamans for guidance on which direction to re-engineer the human species, since, like, we’re flawed. Becuase, of course, eugenics has always resulted benevolent action. Gah.
Oh yeah, and so I poked the stupidity with a pointy stick a bit to entertain myself, since I refuse to waste my time, but, alas, the conversation finally wound up in what I call the “metaphysical gutter”, or, more specifically, the conversation reached a point at which it became abundantly obvious that the next words uttered in the room would need be some form of the general expression: “the Tao that can be spoken is not the True Tao, but We Keep Trying to Talk About IT so that We can Keep TALKING, RATHER THAN Shutting The Fuck Up and DOING Something Useful to the Great Work,” which is also often heard in the dark underworld of corporate hell as, “Why I Usually Hate Meetings.”
“KNOWING IS NOT ENOUGH, WE MUST APPLY.
WILLING IS NOT ENOUGH, WE MUST DO.”
– Bruce fucking Lee
’nuff outta me.. my $0.02.
I’d like to point out the deep ironies of the term “enlightenment.”
It’s used rather offhandedly in the discussion linked to. Louv associates it with “awakening” and contrasts both concepts against magics which address the power dynamic. It’s the classic white-versus-black-magic, righthand-versus-lefthand dichotomy. I’m not going to go too much into that, but I think it should be painfully obvious to anyone that righthand paths are not apolitical, historically neutral operations, as much as they are at pains to present themselves to be.
But the term itself, while it may refer to some nebulously defined Actual Contact with Higher Spiritual States and/or Entities is also an umbrella term under which Europe radically redefined its spiritual and philosophical orientation toward the world and in the process provided itself with technologies which made possible for European powers to dominate the globe. Specifically, “Enlightenment” is a term for programmatic colonialism. It is of no surprise whatsoever that Voudoun is hostile to enlightenment.
Surely, the historical use of this term in its political context is at least as relevant to the discussion, if not more than in the way it has been used here. Any attempt to absolutely separate the magical layer from the political layer recapitulates the oppressive gesture.
And it should also be remembered that as the location of the first successful slave rebellion, the inheritors of colonial power have had very special and ongoing plans for Haiti, of which the Duvalier dictatorships were only a small fragment. I.e., voudoun itself is capable of co-option.
Anyway, fie on Ultraculture. Jason’s never answered a single of one of (albeit two) emails. *Sniff.*
Seems to me that Louv & UltraCulture are headed straight towards a Carlos Castaneda-style predatory cult. The Nath will kill the Lwa? Man, c’mon. Kill a god-form? Grow up.
And those tragic, much-vaunted Raped Girls of Shiv’s… uh, yeah, sad, if they exist. (They sound a bit generic though, to be honest.) I know a girl — English, Lucy, came from Brighton — raped by a real bastard of a crystal salesman. Doesn’t make Crystals Teh Sp4wn 0v Teh D3v1l.
Just anothe cosmic superimposition, a
new age fake, go to the sources and leave the dogs outside the temple..
Please don’t confuse what Jason and Shivanot are doing with the actual Nath tradition. They’ve essentially made up their own trip and simply pinned the “Nath” label to it.
Shivanot has as much as admitted that he is doing this in an attempt to destroy the reputation of the Nath organizations associated with Shri Gurudev Mahendranath, including the International Nath Order. He’s now also going after the remnants of AMOOKOS in the same way. Yes, there is a definite agenda here. I’m not sure how voudon got dragged into is as it has no relation to the Nath tradition, but there you are…